AN INTERVIEW WITH
AMBASSADOR AKBAR S. AHMED
Conducted in January, 2007

When I first heard Dr. Akbar Ahmed deliver the keynote address at a conference at the University of Oklahoma, I had not yet read his distinguished resume:  Chair of Islamic Studies at American University;  former High Commissioner of Pakistan to Great Britain; hailed by the BBC as the "world’s leading authority on contemporary Islam." The list goes on and on, to include being named Washington D. C. Professor of the Year in 2004 at an unprecedented interfaith service at the National Cathedral. Akbar had arrived in the U.S. just one week before 9-11. In its aftermath he committed himself to teach all who wanted to learn about the true essence of Islam.

That first time I heard him speak, I only knew that he was a kindred spirit:  he was that fascinating, powerful combination of political and spiritual, the quintessential citizen ambassador for peace, who is focused on nothing less than transforming our world. 

He was an eloquent spokesman for Islam and Sufism, arresting my attention with his statement about the paradox of Rumi being the best-selling poet in our post 9-11 world.  Then he expertly condensed the Sufi message.  "The message of Sufis like Rumi is unity."  He challenged us to understand the deep love that Muslims have for Muhammad and suggested Jesus could be a bridge between Muslims and Christians because he was beloved by both.  

As an anthropologist, educator, and author, Akbar is clearly a seeker and imparter of knowledge, at heart.   But he also excels in two other virtues that all Muslims strive to attain:  justice and compassion.   He couldn’t have welcomed my co-producer Kell Kearns and me more warmly than that bitterly cold day in D. C. when we interviewed him in his office at American University.

- Cynthia Lukas, Co-Producer and Writer, Rumi Returning 

CYNTHIA:  Let’s begin with the phenomenon that is Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi.  How would you explain the grand expansive flowering of Rumi’s transcendent mysticism and creative genius within the context of his turbulent times and circumstances, not unlike our own?  After being a child refugee who had to flee his home to escape the Mongols, he could have seen himself as a victim, turned to a more conservative heterodoxy, but didn’t.  Quite the opposite, with Rumi there is the sense of an absolute lack of limitation, of boundless love.

AKBAR:  Remember that Islam is dramatically changing in Rumi’s lifetime.  It’s the 13th century.  The Crusades have been hammering the Muslim world from the West for centuries.  What is hammering the Muslim world from the East comes from the Gobi Desert. . .Genghis Kahn and his descendants.  In 1258 Genghis Kahn and his descendants would attack, invade and sack Baghdad, the heart of the Muslim Arab Dynasty, and a chapter in history would come to a close.  Rumi is in the center, in the eye of the storm.  In spite of that, Rumi transcends his predicament.  He rises through Sufism and mysticism and love.  And therein is the greatness of Rumi:  in a time of great turmoil and trouble, he’s giving the human heart solace and compassion and love.

CYNTHIA:  If Rumi is an exemplar of Sufism, explain Sufism.  Over the centuries it seems to have been shrouded in mystery, particularly for those in the West. 

AKBAR:  Sufism is at the heart of all human society.  It is man and woman’s urge to reach out to others, to understand the divine outside the formal boundaries of religion, orthodox religion.  That is Sufism.  It is simplicity.  It is compassion.  It is piety.  And it is, above all, acceptance of others.  So it the heart of all the great faiths.  You can see it in great Biblical figures like Jesus.  There’s no greater mystic, Sufi figure, than Jesus in terms of the symbolism of love and compassion and piety. 

In Islam Sufism is directly associated with the Prophet of Islam himself, going back to the 7th century, especially in his dress, his simplicity, and his compassion for and feeling for the dispossessed in society.  At that time women had no rights, orphans had no rights, and the Prophet was very, very compassionate and sensitive about the dispossessed.  He identified with what in turn became Sufism. 

The word itself, suf, comes from cloth or cloak, the rough cloth that simple people wear.  And the Prophet of Islam again was famous for wearing a very simple, black blanket around himself.  In the poetry and folklore and literature, he’s called The Wearer of the Black Blanket.  So he really was a very humble and very simple man.   He becomes the ideal prototype of the Sufi.  Sufis possess this lineage and pride in the Prophet of Islam. 

So, Mawlana Rumi, one of the greatest, best known and most beloved Sufis of all time, is inspired by the Prophet and the Qur’an.  And here’s the paradox of Sufism:  Rumi is the number one, best-selling poet in the United States of America, post 9-11, and Rumi is inspired directly by not only the Qur’an but the example of the Prophet of Islam. 

CYNTHIA:  In your book Islam Under Siege you wrote that "the popularity of Rumi’s poetry after 9-11 points to the paradoxes—and the hope—of our world."  Many who have written about Rumi, in particular Annemarie Schimmel, note that even in his moments of deepest grief, he always offers hope, and that it is perhaps this aspect of his teaching that has endeared him to millions of readers.  Is this fountain of hope characteristic of someone who follows the Sufi path of acceptance and love?

AKBAR:  Yes.  I’ve studied rural areas throughout the Muslim world.  And, ordinary people, especially, especially the poor, love Sufism.  They love mysticism.  Picture to yourself, if you’re a villager in India or Pakistan, if you’re a Muslim, you’re living in some ordinary, isolated village, and you hear these wonderful devotional songs that Sufis sing. . . 
It gives you hope!  It gives you a sense of belonging that you are something.  You may not be very rich. You may be living in a mud hut.  You may have children you can’t feed, but you’re still human.  You still matter.  This Divine, the God we all worship, still loves you.  God still cares for you. 

Orthodox Islam, on the other hand, has a tendency—I’m looking at it from the point of view of the ordinary Muslim, the villager—to appear very harsh because orthodox Islam is really saying, “Do this and do this.”  It’s very Abrahamic...The Ten Commandments.  “Thou shalt and Thou shalt not.”  Therefore, orthodox Islam is really telling the ordinary villager, “You shall do this and you shall not do that, or, you’re breaking the law and you’re not breaking the law.”  The modernist Muslim tells the poor, “Can you vote for me in the next election?”  And after the election like all politicians he may not come around to your village for the next four years or ten years.  So, ultimately, the ordinary Muslim has very few people to count on except those who feel for him or her and can share their pain.  The Sufi can be counted on to love unconditionally.

CYNTHIA:  Why has Sufism continued to grow and spread steadily since its recorded beginning in the 7th and 8th centuries (of the common era) with saints such as Rābi‛a, often called the “First Among Sufis,” who spoke of Allah as her “Beloved” as Rumi and other Sufis would later?

AKBAR:  After the 7th century Islam sort of exploded from the Arabian Peninsula, and it exploded in two or three different forms.  It is now a global power.  It’s a dominant civilization.  So it exploded in the forms of generals, military captains, with a fervor; some would say, “with the Qur’an in one hand, sword in the other”.  But, much of the explosion came in the form of scholars, sages and mystics, who brought the message of Islam to the villages and towns and shantytowns, and lived with people and talked of love and compassion and simplicity.  They brought a different message:  the message of Sulh-i-kul (“Peace with all.”). 

So the essence of Islam was spread by these wonderful mystics and sages from the time of the Prophet onwards.  Sufism spread both to Central Asia and to South Asia, converting millions of people through example, friendship, and personal interaction.  Indeed, as you said, one of the earliest Sufis was Rābi‛a.  She is a paradox, a great female Sufi -and we’re talking of centuries before Rumi - living in what is now Iraq and talking about love and compassion, although she had a very tough life.  She had a very, very tough life as a female, and apparently, a beautiful woman, yet she emerged from her traumatic life to become a figure of love and compassion and simplicity.  Her poems to God and her love for God are very, very moving. 

In a sense you can see a lot of Rumi in Rābi‛a centuries before.  So when Rumi arrives he’s not coming out of nowhere.  He’s not composing on a blank slate.  There’s already a great build-up to Rumi, and of course, there would continue to be other Sufi figures like Rumi making a similar impact all over the world.

CYNTHIA:  Early Sufic masters were persecuted for making statements such as “I am God” or “I am Truth”.  There are hints that Rumi’s beloved father and teacher decided to flee Balkh not just because of the Mongol attack but because he wasn’t considered orthodox enough by some fellow theologians.  And, of course, the circumstances around Shams’ disappearance and probable murder suggest that some, even one of Rumi’s own sons, believed that Shams had led Rumi astray from orthodoxy.  What is there about this Sufic path of love and compassion and simplicity that could draw such opposition and persecution? 

AKBAR:  The question of how Sufis relate to the Divine is a very interesting one, and not just from the personal dimension.  It raises huge theological issues.  Because the Sufi may say that he or she loves the Divine so much that they don’t see any boundaries between the Divine and those of us on earth living as mortals.  There are no boundaries.  We are one, fused with the Divine.  So therefore you have the classic example of the Sufi saying, “ana al-haqq,” “I am God” and then confronting the full wrath and majesty of the orthodox establishment.

When Sufis pushed this notion of love and fusion and merging with the Divine to the point of making such statements they were persecuted, very often killed for their beliefs.  So Sufis had to find a very clever way of living in this world while expressing their intense love of the Divine.  And, one way of doing it was to express the love of God by using  symbolism, allegory, metaphors—the language of poetry.  So, if they said, “Beloved, I love you to the point of distraction.  When I look at you, I look with the eyes of love.  You are like wine for me.  When I drink you, I become intoxicated.”  - The Sufi, in fact, was talking about love for the Divine.  Everyone understood this.  What this does is, it creates an entire literature around Sufism, very moving, very powerful.

CYNTHIA:  For your book Journey Into Islam: The Crisis of Globalization, you traveled extensively around the world interviewing Muslims about their ideas, values, and role models.  You found out that one of the most beloved role models in Turkey is Rumi, who, while born in the Persian Empire, lived most of his life in Rūm (now Turkey).  But, how are Sufis viewed today by Muslims who are not Sufis? 

AKBAR:  I would say that a lot of people when they understand Sufism have great sympathy for Sufism.  No Muslim can resist the charm and the attraction of the Prophet of Islam.  And when a Muslim sees the Sufi’s love for the Prophet, the Muslim melts because he appreciates the Sufi, his piety and peace..  Not all Muslims may agree with the method, but most appreciate the intense devotion of the Sufi. 

CYNTHIA:  I’ve heard you speak about our world “reaching an endgame with fewer and fewer choices.”  We agree, and all of our film work is about showing our world community our common humanity in order to further understanding, encourage harmony, and offer choices or alternatives that can lead us down the path to “Peace with all.”  What do Islam and Sufism in particular offer the world in its precarious position today? 

AKBAR:  What we’re now seeing in the Muslim world is the reemergence of the traditionalist model.  But, what we really need to see is the strengthening, the defining, and the clear identification of the universal mystic model in Islam.  That is the message of Islam that the 21st century is waiting for.  And it’s absolutely crucial because ¼ of humanity will be Muslim in the next few decades.  There are 57 Muslim states today, one of them nuclear.  Very soon there may be half a dozen nuclear powers from the Muslim world. 

And there are 7 million Muslims in the United States of America.  And America has a direct interest in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey, all Muslim countries.  America above all cannot afford to be ignorant of Islam.  It is not merely an academic exercise for Americans to come understand Islam...in its nuances and complexities, not the simplistic stuff that is broadcast in the media, but the kind of discussion you and I are having.  Americans need to appreciate, interact, and therefore to make sense of the world of Islam.  Without this understanding , the US will have no idea how to deal with this huge global civilization that is Islam.

CYNTHIA:  There are those beautiful Rumi lines:   “Ignorance is God’s prison.  Knowing is God’s palace.”  Rumi himself as a Sufi teacher, with his poetry being only one of the ways that he taught his students, seems to have embodied the Islamic ideal of the pursuit of ilm or knowledge.  Historically Muslims have made vital contributions to our world civilization by being inquisitive, pursuing scholarship, and preserving knowledge.  For example, when the West descended into the the Dark Ages, it was the Islamic Empire with its hunger for knowledge who kept classical knowledge alive.  Tell us about the importance of ilm to Islam.

AKBAR:  The Prophet said in the 7th century—think of yourself as an Arab in the 7th century, completely cut off from the world.  Yet the Prophet said, “Seek knowledge (ilm) even if you have to go to China.”  For an Arab in the 7th century, going to China would be like telling you or me in the 21st century, “Go to Mars or go to the moon to acquire knowledge.”  It was a leap into the unknown.  And yet it is the duty of a Muslim to acquire knowledge.  That is the reason that drives millions of Muslims to respect the United States of America and migrate to the United States, its universities, its way of life, its welcome to the immigrant.

People in the media and America associate Islam with terrorism, extremism, and so on.  You see these shrieking mobs, and people being beheaded, and all these terrible things that have happened and are happening in the Muslim world.  What they don’t understand is the supreme position of knowledge or ilm in Islam.  The second most used word in the Qur’an after the word of God, the name of God, is ilm.  The Prophet of Islam said the greatest duty of a Muslim is to acquire knowledge.  “The ink of the scholar,” the Prophet said, “is more sacred than the blood of the martyr.”  Think of the power of this statement!  If Muslims understood this, they would not be blowing themselves up.  They would be studying and writing and reading and using the mind. 

This is a great challenge for Muslims and a greater challenge for the West because the West does not see this aspect of Islam.  It simply sees Islam as a threatening, migrating civilization, which is going to strike us here, there, everywhere, in the airport, on the train, or in our homes.  Let us understand the true features, the central features, the core features of Islam, and the ideal of Islam, which has ilm at its heart.

CYNTHIA:  What specifically does Rumi have to offer us today?

AKBAR:  If there’s one motto which the post 9-11 world needs to adopt, I would say it should be a line from Rumi, where he says, “I go to the synagogue, I go to the church, I go to the mosque, and I see the same altar, and I feel the same spirit.”  This is the embodiment of the universal spirit, without which I’m afraid in the 21st century, and I can say this with great confidence, we as a world civilization are lost.  We do not have a choice.  We must rediscover the spirit of the universal mystics.